Porsche questions GT-R Ring claim

[ThePistonHead]

Porsche has accused Nissan of cheating in the GT-R's record bid at the Nurburgring racetrack.

Porsche has just run its own back-to-back tests with the Japanese company's GT-R supercar and says it could not get within 25 seconds of Nissan's claimed record time of seven minutes 29 seconds in April.

It also found its 911 Turbo and GT2 were both quicker than the GT-R.

"This wonder car with 7:29 could not have been a regular series production car," says August Achleitner, the 911 product chief for Porsche, speaking to the CARSguide at the Australian press preview of the latest 911 Cabrio.

"For us, it's not clear how this time is possible. What we can imagine with this Nissan is they used other tyres."

He believes the time achieved by Nissan with ex-Formula One driver Toshio Suzuki would only be possible with a semi-slick race-style tyre.

Achleitner says Porsche took a standard GT-R, running on regular road tyres, and ran it around the Nurburgring within two hours of its own cars, on the same day with exactly the same weather conditions.

He says there was no tweaking of any kind and the GT2 and Turbo both ran on regular Porsche road tyres, the Michelin Sport Cup.

"We bought the car in the US. We drove a GT-R with new tyres," he says.

Achleitner was initially protective of the exact lap times, which were run during a program when Porsche also compared its upcoming four-door Panamera with a range of potential rivals.

But he eventually revealed his team clocked the GT-R at 7 minutes 54 seconds, with the 911 Turbo managing 7:38 and the GT2 getting down to 7:34.

The laps were not run by Porsche's usual hot-lap specialist, former world rally champion and race winner Walter Rohrl, but one of the company's chassis development engineers who is an expert on the Nurburgring.

Achleitner says the back-to-back comparison was run because Porsche was concerned by Nissan's claims for the GT-R, which is heavier than the 911 with similar power.

"The Nissan is a good car. I don't want to make anything bad with my words," he says.

"It's a very consistent car. But this car is about 20 kilos heavier than the Turbo . . ."

In the end, Porsche believes its testing has achieved the right lap times for the Skyline GT-R and benchmarked it against its own 911 heroes in the right context.

"For us it has been clearly the result. This technical puzzle now fits together. With the other numbers we had problems to understand it," he says.
- Herald Sun

http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/mo...referrer=email

[XR6_190]

Yes because the guys from Porsche wouldn't at all be biased would they?

[geckoGT]

One answer to this dilemma. independent testing and no manufacturers claims.

[5.4 GT]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

One answer to this dilemma. independent testing and no manufacturers claims.

Yep good point.

Every independent test I've ever seen has the Nissan GTR beat the 997 911 Turbo every time. (Top Gear, Fifth Gear, Best Motoring, Autocar and Edmunds [all stated were video reviews]).

Just do a search on YouTube of Porsche 911 Turbo vs Nissan GTR and people should find plenty of independent reviews.

[Sledgehammer]

Sour grapes pehalps....The GTR I saw had 140 rated potenzas on it (which are great and really soft tyres) factory which is near enought to being a semi slick. Mabey the USA cars have a different type tyre for their US delivery?

[5.4 GT]

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer

Sour grapes pehalps....The GTR I saw had 140 rated potenzas on it (which are great and really soft tyres) factory which is near enought to being a semi slick. Mabey the USA cars have a different type tyre for their US delivery?

Yep Potenza RE070 tyres. VERY good tyres and your right they have a semi slick outer edge to them.

[Fev]

Originally Posted by DaveO_SP

Yep Potenza RE070 tyres. VERY good tyres and your right they have a semi slick outer edge to them.

This is a fairly popular tyre actually, i see a fair few Silvia's and STI's with them

in regards to porsches claim.. well different days, different drivers etc etc etc.. maybe they should organise a 1 on 1 race with porsches driver and nissans driver GTR vs GT2! It would get rid of all the arguments and speculation and it would be a great top gear episode

[XR6_190]

Originally Posted by Fev

This is a fairly popular tyre actually, i see a fair few Silvia's and STI's with them

in regards to porsches claim.. well different days, different drivers etc etc etc.. maybe they should organise a 1 on 1 race with porsches driver and nissans driver GTR vs GT2! It would get rid of all the arguments and speculation and it would be a great top gear episode

Now that's a great idea, get an impartial driver (the stig) to take them both around the 'ring a couple of times maybe, then get an unbiased and realistic time, Fev your an ideas man

[Wally]

Well it won't be an issue when Nissan release the 370z, will it.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by XR6_190

Now that's a great idea, get an impartial driver (the stig) to take them both around the 'ring a couple of times maybe, then get an unbiased and realistic time, Fev your an ideas man

Thats the whole point of the article, when put side by side the GTR was unable to come anywhere near its time. They wouldn't be trying to drive he GTR under its time if they are bench marking.

[geckoGT]

I would go with the sour grapes theory and I would have expected more from Porsche, maybe they can not tolerate being beaten by something that originates outside the european continent.

[ThePistonHead]

Those brakes are fairly large...

[Ives]

If you guys see the full 7min 29sec video of the GT-R... they stop the clock at a different point than they start the clock. Add about 5-10seconds to the lap, you'll get a lap time that's much closer to what the car is capable of.

[Ives]

Regarding the tyres, the GT-R comes with options of 2 tyres. The Potenza RE070R (more track oriented) and Dunlop SP Sport 600 (more for normal road use/touring tyres).

BTW- here's the full lap video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZ5i...eature=related

[Cobra]

Didn't they time the GT-R bridge to gantry, not the actual full circuit?

[MITCHAY]

I'd imagine the Potenza tyres would bloody expensive too!

[Ives]

That would be correct.

Custom size, too.

[schnoods]

All honesty i think Porsche seem to be whinging but within reason.

I can understand being beaten by car with almost half the price tag, but im sure each manufacturer will do research into seeing how good their competition really is.

Maybe the GTR that was raced was not an "off the Shelf" model and tuned especially for the track, still an impressive time but it can also give out some false exposure.

After all this is a Ford Forum in Australia, who knows how many hundreds perhaps thousands of forums worldwide have a thread on the GTR at Nurburgring.

Still it is childish for porsche to come out the way they have, but the truth is important too.

[Ives]

Originally Posted by schnoods

Maybe the GTR that was raced was not an "off the Shelf" model and tuned especially for the track, still an impressive time but it can also give out some false exposure.

The car that was used to lap 7min 38sec was in fact a prototype. But the one used in the "7min 29sec video" is outgoing base model GT-R that you and I can buy.

[Bossxr8]

I've always thought the claim was crap too, the time difference between the 911 Turbo and GTR was just too much for cars with very similar weight, power and AWD.

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by Ives

But the one used in the "7min 29sec video" is outgoing base model GT-R that you and I can buy.

Maybe you can buy it.....but this thing is way out of my budget. I reckon they need to smack these two cars side by side and have an all out drag round nurburgring....anything goes.

[Ives]

There's another thing you have to take into consideration. The Nurburging is open for public, people can pay 15-20 Euros and do a lap. If you look at the GT-R video, it looks like a clean run, no traffic. Nissan might do that run early early in the morning OR blocked off the track for 8 minutes.

I read that Porsche never arrange for the track to be blocked off, so the times the 911 Turbo pulled can definitely be improved.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Ives

There's another thing you have to take into consideration. The Nurburging is open for public, people can pay 15-20 Euros and do a lap. If you look at the GT-R video, it looks like a clean run, no traffic. Nissan might do that run early early in the morning OR blocked off the track for 8 minutes.

I read that Porsche never arrange for the track to be blocked off, so the times the 911 Turbo pulled can definitely be improved.

The Nurburgring is only open to the public about 50% of the time, maybe less - "The Ring is not open to the public all the time - it's used for all sorts of other things, like manufacturer test sessions, training schools, private hire days, etc. Indeed, the Ring is generally only open to the public on weekday evenings, a handful of weekends and the odd half-day here and there." http://nurburgring.org.uk/

Not sure where you read Porsche never book the track but I'm sure its not true, theres no way they'd be testing the Panamera among public novices. Both the Porsche and Nissan lap time claims would have been made on a closed track. Theres some unbelievably slow traffic on the track when its open to the public - ie tourbuses! Fast times are difficult to achieve by anyone in anycar during those times.

As for the choice between a Porsche or GTR... Porsche all the way! A Porsche doesn't use it's sat nav to watch where and how you drive the car in order to question warranty claims, and you wont have to rebuild the engine every 100,000km's in a Porsche.

[GT-E]

Firstly the US spec GT-R is speed limited to 155mph or 250km/h
Secondly the timing at the Ring from the gantry to the bridge is recognised as a lap, as you cannot do a complete lap, you must enter the pits and pay for another round
Thirdly the tires are R compound, as they are on any car tests on the ring.
fourth, Porsche are threatned by the GT-R as it was built to smash the Porsche and they did it.
Fith, I am sure Nissan closed the track for their run as it can be booked for these types of events, there is nothing wrong with getting a clear run.

[Ives]

Originally Posted by ZapXR6T

fourth, Porsche are threatned by the GT-R as it was built to smash the Porsche and they did it..

It was benchmarked against the 911 Turbo, but the GT-R accidentally squashed the 911 GT3, 911 GT3 RS and the 911 GT2... Oopsies.

But Porsche shouldn't worry, their Carrera GT can beat the GT-R.

Originally Posted by ZapXR6T

Secondly the timing at the Ring from the gantry to the bridge is recognised as a lap, as you cannot do a complete lap, you must enter the pits and pay for another round
.

..and that's when GranTurismo 5 comes in.

[Wretched]

Porsche are simply questioning how the lap was done. 20+ seconds is huge.
I think some people are just remembering the infamous R33 lap ;)

Porsche are not really threatened by the GTR, the people that buy the 911T either would have a GTR too or won't even look at one. Many of the 911T owners respect the GTR but it isn't the car they would purchase. Believe it or not they're two different markets.

Now if no one here expected the GTR to beat the 911T (even Porsche knew it would) they're simply a little simple in the head. Nissan had a 911T throughout the development of the GTR, everywhere the GTR was a 911T was there.

The GTR is a great car as is the 911. There is no denying that both are great vehicles.

[irlewy86]

The point of the article is Porsche knew the GTR was going to be quicker and want to benchmark against the GTR to improve their times. However they haven't been able to replicate the feat and therefore are probably a little ****ed about being sent on a wild goose chase.

[bdave351]

Tyres or boost...........thats a big change in lap times.

For all those calling sour grapes, what would you be saying if Holden put its 'new R8' around the mountain and was claiming to run 2:10 V8 supercar times we would all be wondering why we couldnt do the same in a F6.

[ZC001]

Sooks.
Just bitter about losing the war.
Twice

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by ZC001

Sooks.
Just bitter about losing the war.
Twice

But damn can they make a car..LOL

Anyway, I doubt someone who buys a 911 will look to hard at a GTR. Alot of it is about the badge and not the stop watch.