Ford's performance arm is fighting back with a massaged and more powerful V8

fprfpv · 02-07-2007, 07:45 PM

It makes me wonder with all the speculation that the Cobra to be released in October may be more than 302kw. The way I read this article there is going to be a special R-Spec GT with 302kw to be release before the Cobra.

So I wonder if FPV are hiding something special for the Cobra? What do you think?

Source: Carpoint.com.au

Ford's performance arm is fighting back with a massaged and more powerful V8

Ford Performance Vehicles (FPV) is back on the front foot. As the last of its limited edition GT 40th Anniversary sedans are delivered to dealers in July, the Prodrive-operated Ford performance arm is gearing up for a non-stop roll out of revised models planned to regain momentum ahead of its all-new Orion-based range in 2008.

The big news is the first power increase for the Boss V8-engined models since 2003, set for a launch as early as mid-August.

Just as HSV recently revived the 307kW figure in line with the capacity of Holden's first 307 V8 option in 1968, FPV is expected to announce a power increase of 12kW over the current 290kW, for a total of 302kW -- the same as the capacity for Ford's rival V8 option in 1968.

Although this increased power figure has already been linked to the launch of a new Cobra limited edition for this year's Sydney Motor Show and Bathurst in October, it makes no sense for FPV to reserve such an engine upgrade solely for a limited edition Cobra so late in the BF Series II model life. Simply, FPV cannot afford to wait until October for its next special editions.

It is significant that FPV has yet to announce the availability of its R-Spec suspension option on the mainstream FPV range after previewing it in March this year. After this handling option was fitted to all GT 40th Anniversary models, FPV suggested that the R-Spec option would then become available on all its sedans once production of the GT 40th Anniversary model ended.

When the R-Spec option amounted to no more than shock absorbers, a badge, extra paint accents and a larger auto transmission cooler, not everyone was holding their breath for this development. However, the R-Spec option will gain a huge measure of credibility when the 302kW engine is announced as part of a special R-Spec production run before the Cobra is revealed in October.

FPV is also expected to announce other revisions that will impact on all its mainstream models.

There will also be upgraded special versions of the F6 turbo models to maintain interest in what has been a huge success for FPV.

It is also believed that FPV will use the suspension and power upgrades to launch a new marketing campaign and sales pitch for the Force 6 and Force 8 models (more here). These models, which were initially offered as a softer Euro-themed alternative to the mainstream FPV range, will be repositioned as premium Aussie muscle with class and attitude.

If the Cobra is launched in October, it would make no sense to hold over customer deliveries until the Christmas shutdown period. The recent situation where the GT 40th Anniversary only went into production in May after its Melbourne Motor Show preview in March is not likely to be repeated.

From now on, expect FPV to announce its new models as they are ready for production so that deliveries don't clash with the arrival of the new Orion range.

:

xwboss · 02-07-2007, 08:23 PM

Maybe Ford will need to rethink power figures as Holden are releasing the 385kw 7.0 litre 427 Chev (as sighted in wheel magazine july 2007) in a HSV GTS-R.
This is the engine that was in the all conquering (cheating) Holden Monaro production car, which was responsible for the death of bathurst 24hr production car race.

**Bluehoon** · 02-07-2007, 08:38 PM

Good and pleasing news none the less.

However, lets see if it comes to fruition..

Falcon Freak · 02-07-2007, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xwboss

.........Holden are releasing the 385kw 7.0 litre 427 Chev (as sighted in wheel magazine july 2007) in a HSV GTS-R.
This is the engine that was in the all conquering (cheating) Holden Monaro production car, which was responsible for the death of bathurst 24hr production car race.

Well said. Not only did the 7 litre kill the 24 hour race but it also killed the PROCAR category. But I digress.

How much more torque will the Boss engines produce???

FF

RS500 · 05-07-2007, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

Well said. Not only did the 7 litre kill the 24 hour race but it also killed the PROCAR category. But I digress.

How much more torque will the Boss engines produce???

FF

PROCAR closed down due to Ross Palmer the owner/funder/organiser becoming VERY ill and couldn't continue running it. No one else was willing to put the time ect in and it simply closed doors.

I have to agre with most of teh posts here. FPV seems to believe that a "special edition" badge will sell some units. Personally the R-Spec 40th edition looks like SH!T.

spend some money dropping the weight not on some cheap stickers. Look at BMW's carbon fibre roof that was done to lower the weight (and it looks sexy), yes its expensive, but who wants to drive a 2 tonne sports car????

Brent · 06-07-2007, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RS500

spend some money dropping the weight not on some cheap stickers. Look at BMW's carbon fibre roof that was done to lower the weight (and it looks sexy), yes its expensive, but who wants to drive a 2 tonne sports car????

Problem is, the Falcon isn't a sports car. Never was. Always has been a 4 door family sedan. Period. To drop weight, serious weight (as in 100kg+), you have to do one of three things:

1./ Use high cost materials (aluminium, carbon fibre, titanium)
2./ Cust back on fixtures & fittings (soundproofing, electrical gizmos etc)
3./ Reduce structural rigidity

Falcon's low volumes relative to world standards make Option 1 not a fiscally viable alternative. Remember folks, most Falcons are sold as XT company cars, or Futura models so that mum and dad can take the kids driving on the weekend. To tool up special lightweight materials for a few thousand FPVs every year will never add up from a $$$ perspective.

Option No 2 is tough as well. Everyone wants more airbags, in-dash CD players, less noise, climate control, leather seats etc. What do you do? Put manual window wipers in a $60K car?

Option No 3 was perfected by Holden for years. Good god my old man's 1998 Clubsport has only 185kw yet goes like a cut cat. Why? Because it has the structural integrity of a souffle. Weighs bugger all. Great from going from 0-100kms, but if you're in a prang, good luck......

If we want bigger and faster, we'll probably get heavier as well. Unless you want to pay another $20K per car that is. Holden has a more 'street friendly' motor that performs better on the street when you're on and off the throttle in the real world, unlike a dyno.

FPV, given its limites budget and development resources, ideally needs to source a new 'crate' motor, just like HSV have done. Maybe the "hurricane" engine will be our salvation. Maybe not.

shepv8 · 07-07-2007, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent

Problem is, the Falcon isn't a sports car. Never was. Always has been a 4 door family sedan. Period. To drop weight, serious weight (as in 100kg+), you have to do one of three things:

1./ Use high cost materials (aluminium, carbon fibre, titanium)
2./ Cust back on fixtures & fittings (soundproofing, electrical gizmos etc)
3./ Reduce structural rigidity

Falcon's low volumes relative to world standards make Option 1 not a fiscally viable alternative. Remember folks, most Falcons are sold as XT company cars, or Futura models so that mum and dad can take the kids driving on the weekend. To tool up special lightweight materials for a few thousand FPVs every year will never add up from a $$$ perspective.

Option No 2 is tough as well. Everyone wants more airbags, in-dash CD players, less noise, climate control, leather seats etc. What do you do? Put manual window wipers in a $60K car?

Option No 3 was perfected by Holden for years. Good god my old man's 1998 Clubsport has only 185kw yet goes like a cut cat. Why? Because it has the structural integrity of a souffle. Weighs bugger all. Great from going from 0-100kms, but if you're in a prang, good luck......

If we want bigger and faster, we'll probably get heavier as well. Unless you want to pay another $20K per car that is. Holden has a more 'street friendly' motor that performs better on the street when you're on and off the throttle in the real world, unlike a dyno.

FPV, given its limites budget and development resources, ideally needs to source a new 'crate' motor, just like HSV have done. Maybe the "hurricane" engine will be our salvation. Maybe not.

Well said mate.
The falcon isnt a sports car, but neither is commodore. Yet Holden manage to get the quicker ( read : more appealing ) car out there 95% of the time.
The Falcons woes are all in the engine bay. Until the VE was released every ford model right back to the EBXR6 was a better handler than its holden counterpart. Ford have always held the edge in chassis/suspension performance.
Its that damn heavy Boss motor. Those massive heads on it sit way up in the engine bay and even with fords excellent suspension, the front end wants to tip over itself. On paper , people see 260-290kW and 500+ Nm and think its a barnstormer until they realise there is nothing but fluff under 3500rpm.
Yeah, the earlier HSV's bodies were shite, but australia bought them by the truckload and now, HSV is able to build cars like the VE series that are better than fords in all areas.
Modern power windows arent any heavier than manual wind up mechanisms anyway so I dont think in the cabin is going to provide any weight loss Like you said , carbon fibre and all that mega expensive high tech material wont be on a cost effective falcon.
I agree about the crate motor idea. Its certainly working for holden/HSV at the moment as it has since the gen 3 first started to appear in their cars. Trouble is, I dont know of a ford crate motor that would suit the falcon. The high tech route is the right option,I just think they chose the wrong motor.
The 3V SOHC per bank motor would have done a better job, not with 220kW though. It would also need a capacity of near enough to 6 litres now to be competetive and the more alloy in that massive donk, the better. Thats really where the easist weight will be saved and will also sharpen up that doughy front end.
The falcons we are talking about XR8's, GT's are a small seller ,numbers wise to the overall ford picture but , they make such an impact on peoples perception of the brand that if they arent seen to be the GUN THING, neither do the lower spec vehicles in the range. HSV/Holden certainly understand this. How many young guys want a V6 commodore with mags, lowered and bodykit. They are the people who in 10-15 years will be buying the $60 000-$80 000 HSV's and already their brand loyalties have been decided....

BOSS.MANIAC · 03-07-2007, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xwboss

Maybe Ford will need to rethink power figures as Holden are releasing the 385kw 7.0 litre 427 Chev (as sighted in wheel magazine july 2007) in a HSV GTS-R.
This is the engine that was in the all conquering (cheating) Holden Monaro production car, which was responsible for the death of bathurst 24hr production car race.

You're right!
FPV keeping saying they are not interested in the horsepower war but you have to wonder why HSV outsell FPV 3 to 1.
Why can't FPV don't do some decent 350+kw balls-out limited editions like the GTS-R?
Even at $100k each they would sell every single one before they even came off the production line... am I wrong?

sleekism · 02-07-2007, 08:36 PM

302 kilowatts will be plenty enough for the moment.

I personally thought FPV would be too busy with the Orion GT and Typhhon to concentrate on the BF.

AWD Chaser · 02-07-2007, 08:41 PM

Me thinks FPV F6 Tempest...

Sounds good, but personally, I think it's silly this far into the production run, and when they are about to relase a new model in less then 12 months...

ED Classic · 02-07-2007, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3 chaser

Me thinks FPV F6 Tempest...

Sounds good, but personally, I think it's silly this far into the production run, and when they are about to relase a new model in less then 12 months...

Better than having to take 10 or more grand off the cars because theyve stopped selling

Brute6 · 02-07-2007, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleekism

I personally thought FPV would be too busy with the Orion GT and Typhhon to concentrate on the BF.

Thats where Prodrive comes into play.... They do a hell of a lot of the development work for the FPV brigade.

exrtnz · 02-07-2007, 08:37 PM

it doesnt look like the GT will ever get 310kw now, let alone 385. Hopefully the Typhoon will get 300?

ClevlndStemer · 02-07-2007, 08:42 PM

hmmm I will believe it when I see it, but sounds good, a small increase but none the less good for marketing.

Green X · 02-07-2007, 08:46 PM

The HSV is a limited release car worth 125K, Hardly something that you can sit next to to a 70K GT and then say the GT is the lesser car.

I think ford having a 302Kw 5.4Ltr V8 next to a HSV 307kw 6 litre V8, it makes the HSV look all of a sudden not that much better, i mean 5Kw is nothing, no doubt the Boss V8 toque figure will go up more than a few Points with the 12Kw increase as well.

I think ford are making the rite moves, not letting HSV scream ahead and not falling behind but keeping in the game.

phillyc · 02-07-2007, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green X

The HSV is a limited release car worth 125K, Hardly something that you can sit next to to a 70K GT and then say the GT is the lesser car.

I think ford having a 302Kw 5.4Ltr V8 next to a HSV 307kw 6 litre V8, it makes the HSV look all of a sudden not that much better, i mean 5Kw is nothing, no doubt the Boss V8 toque figure will go up more than a few Points with the 12Kw increase as well.

I think ford are making the rite moves, not letting HSV scream ahead and not falling behind but keeping in the game.

With you on all points.

ED Classic · 02-07-2007, 08:57 PM

Fantastic news.. If the 302kw engine was exclusive to Cobra there would be a chance this could be the Orion Engine but if its on all the FPV V8 range then its almost certain the Orion FPV 8's will go up even more...Great news

Guys I wouldnt stress over the GT not competing with 385 kw GTS-R. There will only be the odd one here and there even if the make a couple of hundred and I am almost certain FPV will consider such a car during Orions life but lets worry about beating the mainstream HSV's and Holden 8's first. Also the 385KW GTS-R is a great thing as when Ford do such a vehicle it will have to compete in every area and they will benchmark test vehicles against it and compare untill they come up with something better. It is one of the few benefits of releasing a model later.

ED Classic · 02-07-2007, 08:59 PM

Fantastic news.. If the 302kw engine was exclusive to Cobra there would be a chance this could be the Orion Engine but if its on all the FPV V8 range then its almost certain the Orion FPV 8's will go up even more...Great news

Guys I wouldnt stress over the GT not competing with 385 kw GTS-R. There will only be the odd one here and there even if the make a couple of hundred and I am almost certain FPV will consider such a car during Orions life but lets worry about beating the mainstream HSV's and Holden 8's first. Also the 385KW GTS-R is a great thing as when Ford do such a vehicle it will have to compete in every area and they will benchmark test vehicles against it and compare untill they come up with something better. It is one of the few benefits of releasing a model later.

ED Classic · 02-07-2007, 08:56 PM

Fantastic news.. If the 302kw engine was exclusive to Cobra there would be a chance this could be the Orion Engine but if its on all the FPV V8 range then its almost certain the Orion FPV 8's will go up even more...Great news

Guys I wouldnt stress over the GT not competing with 385 kw GTS-R. There will only be the odd one here and there even if the make a couple of hundred and I am almost certain FPV will consider such a car during Orions life but lets worry about beating the mainstream HSV's and Holden 8's first. Also the 385KW GTS-R is a great thing as when Ford do such a vehicle it will have to compete in every area and they will benchmark test vehicles against it and compare untill they come up with something better. It is one of the few benefits of releasing a model later.

ED Classic · 02-07-2007, 08:57 PM

Fantastic news.. If the 302kw engine was exclusive to Cobra there would be a chance this could be the Orion Engine but if its on all the FPV V8 range then its almost certain the Orion FPV 8's will go up even more...Great news

Guys I wouldnt stress over the GT not competing with 385 kw GTS-R. There will only be the odd one here and there even if the make a couple of hundred and I am almost certain FPV will consider such a car during Orions life but lets worry about beating the mainstream HSV's and Holden 8's first. Also the 385KW GTS-R is a great thing as when Ford do such a vehicle it will have to compete in every area and they will benchmark test vehicles against it and compare untill they come up with something better. It is one of the few benefits of releasing a model later.

exrtnz · 02-07-2007, 09:02 PM

I disagree i think they shouldve gone for 310kw just to give them a slight power advantage to compensate for the extra weight that it will have, but it does give them a bit more advertising scope going for 302.

SpoolMan · 02-07-2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exrtnz

I disagree i think they shouldve gone for 310kw just to give them a slight power advantage to compensate for the extra weight that it will have, but it does give them a bit more advertising scope going for 302.

310kw is for the Orion..

BadMac · 02-07-2007, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

310kw is for the Orion..

How sure are you of that? On another forum somebody who should know (I know hes likely to read this post) suggested its higher than that, in fact he suggests higher than 321KW. So how good was your source?

SpoolMan · 02-07-2007, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadMac

So how good was your source?

Only time will tell..
I was told this on the 07-02-07 that's part of the Orion knowledge hub thread..

Redrum · 03-07-2007, 07:09 PM

12kws is nothing but a marketing number. Maybe it will boost sales.........

FlipXW · 03-07-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadMac

How sure are you of that? On another forum somebody who should know (I know hes likely to read this post) suggested its higher than that, in fact he suggests higher than 321KW. So how good was your source?

Thats mad, as long as its usable power down low i think everone will be very happy. Need to loose weight or atleast not gain in orion.

eb2fairmont · 02-07-2007, 09:04 PM

What rubbish. 12kW....wow...after 5 years too.

They just don't get it, they have to go all out and build a ball tearing hi output engine what's a right friggin mongrel. Just 100. The gloss will then rub off on the rest of the range.

That's what the HO was good for.

Green X · 02-07-2007, 09:15 PM

Cost mate, Will you sell you EB2 then and buy one, if they did that??

even if they did, what that would put Ford in front for what 1 year mabey before Holden matched it, leaving ford with a massive bill and average sales, it's not the 70's any more, regulations are tighter and so is money, why start a war that would just be the death of 2 grate car companies.

shepv8 · 02-07-2007, 09:46 PM

Its already a war, Ford have been playing catchup to Holden since the EB XR's in 92. Until the BA , Ford had always chased Holden on power and performance numbers ( we only held the performance label for a small time when the BA came out) Now we're back to chasing them again! It took us from the EB till the seies 2 EL to go from 165 to 185kW!!!!!
An upgrade to 302kW will only result in more straight line punishment from the Commodore and further embarress Ford's "performance" program
The Boss motor has not been the Godsend we all thought it would be, It makes good numbers both in torque and kW, but on the street it just cant compare to the Holden 6.0l mill. ( I have one, It has the usual mods, CAI, Exhaust, Flash tune.) On paper we see the big numbers and think, this time it will perform, but the lack of bottom end and a big kerb weight hurt the poor old Falc. We have a massive technology advantage, multi valve, dual overhead cams per bank, but that big donk sits up too high and then stuffs up the handling side of things.
Most tuners are starting to realise that if we stick with this modular 5.4 motor, then the 3valve ,single overhead cam per bank variant with a capacity increase and as much of the motor as possible being lightweight alloy is the best option.( not going to happen......) It is proving to be a much better street motor.
I really think we need numbers no less than 320kW - 570NM in a car no heavier than it is now to be competetive in a straight line.
What do you guys think?

ED Classic · 02-07-2007, 09:41 PM

I wonder if the NM will go up by a handfull or so or If FPV will claim anything. Thats going to be the hardest thing for FPV to match with their 5.4 V8 whether it be this 302 or the Orion version. A 6 litre is simply a big engine with big torque that I dont know of our NA 5.4 can get near.