Euthanasia - your thoughts?

[supershifty]

We euthanise our pets we love as we feel this as the best for them. We call it humane and the right thing to do, yeah, it hurts to do that.

But what about us humans? This has been hotly debated for as long as I can remember.

The right to life people debate abortion as murder, but what about a person who has lived their life, is of sane mind and makes their own choice to end their own life due to pain and suffering?

I'm not talking about mental difficulties, I'm talking about living in physical pain day to day - like cancer and want to end it.

The poll is anonymous, you're either for or against.

Keep debate about religion out of it - if you have a religious reason, then please state it as part of your belief. There is to be no debate about another persons belief - forbidden!

Yes, I am a proponent of euthanasia. Not considering it just yet, however if everything turns to ****, I would like to choose my time when it comes.

Cheers!

[fordomatic]

It blows my mind in this day and age that it is not legal. It's your life, you should be allowed to end it legally if you want to.

[fordomatic]

Also, anyone who has experienced a close family member or friend suffering and telling you all they want to do is die is when you will be for it. The pain in my dads face when he looked me in the eyes and said he wanted to die with dignity is something i will never forget.

[73 4V XB]

Originally Posted by fordomatic

Also, anyone who has experienced a close family member or friend suffering and telling you all they want to do is die is when you will be for it. The pain in my dads face when he looked me in the eyes and said he wanted to die with dignity is something i will never forget.

Had the same thing with my mother, 3rd bout of cancer, "if I was a horse you'll put me down" I'll never forget those words she had been in palliative care for some time and rumour has it they held back on some of the injections and helped her in the end.
RIP.

[Ratmick]

Originally Posted by fordomatic

Also, anyone who has experienced a close family member or friend suffering and telling you all they want to do is die is when you will be for it. The pain in my dads face when he looked me in the eyes and said he wanted to die with dignity is something i will never forget.

The only people that would be against it Jake are those that have not seen what you have seen...or those on religious grounds (but we won't go there as it's an argument you'll never win). I've seen it closely but second-hand (my ex-wife's father when we were still married), and it's not something I would have wished on the person involved and at the age of 52 I don't want it to happen to me, either tomorrow or in 20-30 years time.

The medical community needs to re-evaluate the 'promotion and extension of life at all costs' approach and take a more holistic view of the entire situation that takes into consideration the views and wishes of the person whose life they are making decisions on.

There is no point promoting or extending the life of someone with a terminal illness who has no future except unremitting pain and a slow and undignified passing. Yes with pain relief things can sometimes be 'managed'. Sometimes this management is to put the person under and keep them under until they starve to death, or they withdraw fluids and they go into multiple organ failure. Sometimes pain meds just don't work.

Palliative care should be an option but it should not be the only option.

At the end of the day the decision should be solely the responsibility of the person that feels it's their preferred option...when there is no other option.

The way I see this working would be an 'assisted dying plan' put in place at any point of your life that would cover the event of a terminal illness or catastrophic injury that would result in a permanent vegetative state.

In the case of a terminal illness the person could choose (or not choose) to enable their plan at any point they feel it's 'time'. This would be done in conjunction with 2 or 3 separate diagnoses from different medical professionals that there is only one way forward and the chosen path can be used to bring things to a controlled conclusion.

In the case of a catastrophic injury with no possible reversal then the plan should be put into play.

The actual process should be handled by the person involved and medical staff. If the person is able they can trigger the event themselves, or the whole apparatus could be semi-automated to kick in at a certain time or medical event.

If the person has the need for a final blessing then religious involvement should be limited to this or some sort of non-judgemental counselling if it is requested. It may be difficult for some religions to refrain from dragging their own perspective into this and trying to dissuade the person from their chosen course. This needs to be managed if it causes distress.

If this doesn't fit with any religion's viewpoints on assisted dying then they should be able to decline involvement without bitterness or rancour on either side. Counselling could come from non-denominational people or organisations.

In fact religious organisations should have no place in the discussion on whether euthanasia, or assisted dying, or dying with dignity (whatever you'd like to term it) is 'legal' or whether it should or shouldn't be condoned. Politicians with religious backgrounds should not have the option of doing their religion's bidding, whatever their take on this is.

The issue we have of course is that everyone's take on this is coloured by their own experiences and beliefs.

If you are part of the decision making process and you believe it is wrong 'because <insert deity here> and my church says so' but you haven't experienced the other side of the coin then maybe you should spend a few weeks in a big hospital or following one of the saintly people that administer palliative care.

If you are part of the decision making process and you believe it is wrong 'because <insert deity here> and my church says so' and you have experienced the other side of the coin AND YOU STILL THINK IT'S BAD then what the hell is wrong with you???

Not sure why we offer animals a release but not our own...

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Isn't that what they do in Hospital anyway??

They up the patients pain meds till they pass away, essentially OD'ing them and putting them to sleep, seems to be a bit of a loop hole in the system.

[Lunch]

I'm all for it but I dont think it should be just reserved for the terminally ill, what if you've simply had enough? if you don't want to be alive at any stage of your life, you shouldn't have to be.. Surely that sort of thing carried out in a controlled environment is much better than the diy solution

[TEZG]

My mother was in care for a while, in the end she wanted to go, they just gave her pain meds only, she went soon and didn't suffer too long.

My sister now has stage 4 lung cancer, she also has it in her brain, bones and lymph glands, prognosis is she has up to 2 yrs.

She is a clinical nurse consultant and has said she'll consider her options regarding treatment options when the time comes, by this she meant not having treatment that makes you feel worse when you've no chance of recovery.
She's also not into using heavy drugs that knock you out, not sure what she'll do about that one.

[LG17]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Isn't that what they do in Hospital anyway??

They up the patients pain meds till they pass away, essentially OD'ing them and putting them to sleep, seems to be a bit of a loop hole in the system.

Thank goodness for that!

[SB076]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Isn't that what they do in Hospital anyway??

They up the patients pain meds till they pass away, essentially OD'ing them and putting them to sleep, seems to be a bit of a loop hole in the system.

I believe it does happen I knew of an extended family member who had their pain medication upped to keep them basically asleep. The doctors and nurses would then ask if "they can turn the patient". This increases the chance of the passing away. The patient was in huge amounts of pain, wasn't going to live so it was inevitable.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Ratmick

The only people that would be against it Jake are those that have not seen what you have seen...or those on religious grounds (but we won't go there as it's an argument you'll never win). I've seen it closely but second-hand (my ex-wife's father when we were still married), and it's not something I would have wished on the person involved and at the age of 52 I don't want it to happen to me, either tomorrow or in 20-30 years time.

The medical community needs to re-evaluate the 'promotion and extension of life at all costs' approach and take a more holistic view of the entire situation that takes into consideration the views and wishes of the person whose life they are making decisions on.

There is no point promoting or extending the life of someone with a terminal illness who has no future except unremitting pain and a slow and undignified passing. Yes with pain relief things can sometimes be 'managed'. Sometimes this management is to put the person under and keep them under until they starve to death, or they withdraw fluids and they go into multiple organ failure. Sometimes pain meds just don't work.

Palliative care should be an option but it should not be the only option.

At the end of the day the decision should be solely the responsibility of the person that feels it's their preferred option...when there is no other option.

The way I see this working would be an 'assisted dying plan' put in place at any point of your life that would cover the event of a terminal illness or catastrophic injury that would result in a permanent vegetative state.

In the case of a terminal illness the person could choose (or not choose) to enable their plan at any point they feel it's 'time'. This would be done in conjunction with 2 or 3 separate diagnoses from different medical professionals that there is only one way forward and the chosen path can be used to bring things to a controlled conclusion.

In the case of a catastrophic injury with no possible reversal then the plan should be put into play.

The actual process should be handled by the person involved and medical staff. If the person is able they can trigger the event themselves, or the whole apparatus could be semi-automated to kick in at a certain time or medical event.

If the person has the need for a final blessing then religious involvement should be limited to this or some sort of non-judgemental counselling if it is requested. It may be difficult for some religions to refrain from dragging their own perspective into this and trying to dissuade the person from their chosen course. This needs to be managed if it causes distress.

If this doesn't fit with any religion's viewpoints on assisted dying then they should be able to decline involvement without bitterness or rancour on either side. Counselling could come from non-denominational people or organisations.

In fact religious organisations should have no place in the discussion on whether euthanasia, or assisted dying, or dying with dignity (whatever you'd like to term it) is 'legal' or whether it should or shouldn't be condoned. Politicians with religious backgrounds should not have the option of doing their religion's bidding, whatever their take on this is.

The issue we have of course is that everyone's take on this is coloured by their own experiences and beliefs.

If you are part of the decision making process and you believe it is wrong 'because <insert deity here> and my church says so' but you haven't experienced the other side of the coin then maybe you should spend a few weeks in a big hospital or following one of the saintly people that administer palliative care.

If you are part of the decision making process and you believe it is wrong 'because <insert deity here> and my church says so' and you have experienced the other side of the coin AND YOU STILL THINK IT'S BAD then what the hell is wrong with you???

Not sure why we offer animals a release but not our own...

That's about as well as it could be summed up as far as I'm concerned, great post fella, probably one of the best ever to appear on this Forum.

I lost my Father to oesophagus/stomach cancer in July 2015, one of the worst forms of cancer there is. He lasted 6 weeks from diagnosis to passing and it was the most heart breaking 6 weeks of my life to watch him rapidly waste away in such pain and discomfort.
He was a fit and healthy 81 year old who couldn't be held down and to watch the transformation in those weeks is something that i'll have to live with for the rest of my life. Whilst he never asked for a swift ending, I could see in his eyes that he hoped it would be over soon.
Due to Family conflict I didn't get to see his final 2 weeks as he went to my Sisters for his last days and so I said my goodbye's when he was still of sound mind in the Hospital, but I was given a detailed description of what he went through and as hard as it is to admit, I'm glad I didn't have to witness it myself as i'd hate to remember him in that state.

That's about all I can say on the matter.

[Ratmick]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

That's about all I can say on the matter.

I'm sorry for your loss, and the fact you missed the last two weeks.

My father passed very young of cancer when I was 4yo, his end was not pretty (testicular cancer with secondary metastasised cancers in all other organs, including the spine and brain/liver/kidneys). My younger brother and I were shielded totally from this, which is understandable and it possibly partially explains my mother's behaviour (long story) as she did it hard. My grandfather got to bury his son, his only child, then died of bowel cancer himself. Both of them were younger than myself, my father didn't make 25.

The familial history and possible links to my own long-term well-being freak me slightly when I stop long enough to dwell on it but I take each day as it comes

My mum's side of the family lived well into their 80s without anything special in the way of diets/exercise or even not smoking, my maternal grandfather made it to 82, and he smoked untipped rollies since he started work as a teen. Drank a shipload too, probably borderline alcoholic...he just dropped dead one morning in-between the time the nurse brought his meds and the time she got back with a tablet she'd missed...without a sound and without a struggle. My grandmother lived another 4-5 years and then had a series of small strokes, the last one killed her. I hopefully I have their genes

The fact the medical profession takes matters into its own hands at times is laudable but it is not legal, it's just done quietly. We shouldn't need to wait to the end for some professional to assist us over the edge when the end is coming.

The saints that work in the field of palliative care are pretty amazing people, a lot of empathy and understanding...we should all have some as well.

[MITCHAY]

As long as the appropriate protections are in place then it should absolutely be an option.
It's 2017, it should not even be a discussion it should have been legal by now.

[Sox]

I don't have a problem with it.
But policing it will bring some major headaches.

People think there's bodgy stuff going on now, wait until it's legalised.

[FPV8U]

Having lost my father late last year to Cancer, having seen the amount of pain he was in towards the end and the limited options available, Damn right it should be legalised, people in his position should have a choice.

Anyone who doesn't agree with it likely hasn't sat by a hospital bed for what seems like an endless period of time while one of their most loved family members suffers needlessly.

[DJM83]

We should have the right, if the quality of life just isnt there then it really isnt worth being here IMO. When my nan passed away 18 mths ago or so she just slipped further and further away every day. She said if she had the choice she would have went down that road, instead she suffered for about a month before she was taken from us. My dad was at the hospital every day as was i. We watched her decline and it was just so painful to see. If you have been through something like that will a loved one you would like to see it legalised.

Another one of dads mates ages ago wasnt well, dad would go to visit him and he would say to dad, just put a pillow over my face no one will know any different. So sad

[monzie]

I,am for it 100%. Also have the chart marked "Do not resuscitate".

[Fed]

I wonder if it's feasible to get the job done overseas?
I suppose you'd have to be well enough to travel then kick back until you got sick enough to want to pull the pin. (Maybe 3-6 Months?)
Probably cheaper to stockpile some pills.

[Pedro]

Originally Posted by Fed

I wonder if it's feasible to get the job done overseas?
I suppose you'd have to be well enough to travel then kick back until you got sick enough to want to pull the pin. (Maybe 3-6 Months?)
Probably cheaper to stockpile some pills.

Its legal in Holland and my ex-wife's terminally ill uncle recently took advantage of it. I would think you have to be a national to take advantage of it.

[sr71]

I've called it the Nurse's Kiss or Angel's Kiss. 3 injections from the nurses,and can be timed for loved ones (and/or the need for the bed). Just observation really. But assumed it was 'Secret Nurse's Business'.
I just googled Upping the Morphine, and found this (in a recent news.com.au) straight away.
It's an inside reveal from someone in the industry.

“In the healthcare industry, physician/nurse-assisted suicide is much more common than you would think and is usually performed with morphine to simply lower respirations to the point of death. It won’t be charted, it won’t be ordered and it won’t be admitted but everyone from the doctor to the nurse knew when they gave that dose of MS sublingual to your loved one with respirations sub-six that it would be their last.

“It was all by design, too. That is why we have been giving you morphine even though you have been unconscious and shedding respirations per minute for the past two days. Of course this isn’t something that happens to everyone, but terminal people, happens all the time. We act like it doesn’t happen in America, like it’s illegal, nah we even have a cute name for it: ‘snowballing’ or ‘snowing’.

“Some people in the field will deny it, some will not know about it but talk to people that work with terminal patients, talk to hospice nurses and doctors. It is a very well kept secret.”

[73 4V XB]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Isn't that what they do in Hospital anyway??

They up the patients pain meds till they pass away, essentially OD'ing them and putting them to sleep, seems to be a bit of a loop hole in the system.

You can't take it upon your self to "up" a patients meds. All meds are accounted for, dosages measured and records kept. Not all doctors and nurses do things by the book but some do. If a doctor was to up the meds he has to do it in writing. If anything happens they go back through the records to see why it happened. If it's proven to be a O/D the doctor has some explaining to do and is open for prosecution.

[FairmontGS]

I'm not for it - it's Pandora's Box. However, I fully support the medical profession administering end-of-life measures as they see fit without imposing legislation and ethics that govern their actions.

And I'm not religious.

[Gypzy]

A very relevant, close to home topic in my household at the moment! I'm 100% for it and I too can't understand why it is still illegal to do what we do to our pets, that is end their suffering and put them at peace. And they can't speak for them selves and have no input in the decision!

[Junkyard-Dog]

I think it's far crueler to keep somebody alive when they don't want to be around than it is to let them die. However if this became a part of our medical system, I imagine that it would be incredibly difficult to determine which applicants for euthanasia are accepted and which are denied. It would probably create all kinds of legal minefields as well, which would unfortunately undermine the humanist aspect.

As mentioned earlier, it really would be like opening Pandora's box. Soon enough you would have physically fit people with psychological illnesses asking for mercy as well.

I'm more for it than against it but ultimately I don't believe in interfering with the lives of others. It should be up to each individual to choose how they end their life. Watching a loved one waste away from a terminal disease brings an indescribable amount of pain to all who are unfortunate enough to witness it. It's brutal to let that suffering continue when mercy is always an option.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

I think it's far crueler to keep somebody alive when they don't want to be around than it is to let them die. However if this became a part of our medical system, I imagine that it would be incredibly difficult to determine which applicants for euthanasia are accepted and which are denied. It would probably create all kinds of legal minefields as well, which would unfortunately undermine the humanist aspect.

As mentioned earlier, it really would be like opening Pandora's box. Soon enough you would have physically fit people with psychological illnesses asking for mercy as well.

I'm more for it than against it but ultimately I don't believe in interfering with the lives of others. It should be up to each individual to choose how they end their life. Watching a loved one waste away from a terminal disease brings an indescribable amount of pain to all who are unfortunate enough to witness it. It's brutal to let that suffering continue when mercy is always an option.

There are too many variables. My aunty went over my mums head (she is a well respected doctor) and pulled the plug (so to speak) on my grandpa when he was 87 with pneumonia and not responding to any meds, unconscious most hours of the day. The instruction was minamal care. All the family had the hard task of paying what was thought to be the last visit. Without the meds he bounced back. It wasn't easy for him, turns out the meds weren't helping. Now almost 91, he still holds a driver's licence (chooses only do drive during the day on short trips and not in peak hour) still likes to go for walks with his old am radio in the top pocket, and still tends to the somewhat smaller garden (he lives in a retirement village with grandma who is still able to get around, but more frail) that he has. Both still have their minds and are pretty clued on with more modern things. Grandpa knows more about Microsoft exel then I do. When he was very sick the choice to end it had there been the option would have been a logical thing, but the fact there wasn't the option and with some obvious (considering the outcome, most people, myself included listen to the doctors) bad medical decisions, the only option of stopping life support worked. Obviously that was just a bad virus and things like severe cancer have a much lower survival rate. But if it's an option to 1 person who has the power of attorney, then who's not to say it's an option for all who have the power of attorney over another, and those who are after the cash grab of inheritance etc would make a much less educated decision then those who want to hold onto the life and person in question.

[98TLS]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

There are too many variables.

Theres variables for sure but then theres cases so severe it can be called cruelty to not end the suffering,few years back a good mate went to the doc with for lack of any medical knowledge to call it anything but a sore tail bone 3 months later he was dead,very aggressive cancer to the point of in his last 2 weeks he had tumors appearing every 2 days,he wanted out after two months due to the pain but they kept on filling him with whatever **** they do which changed little,last few hours i sat with him one of his eyes was all rolled back due to yet another tumor,to say it was disgusting is very much an understatement.Not the way to remember a good bloke and for what gain?

[bingoTE50]

My mother died of motor neuron disease in 1987 at 55 . Not pleasant at all. You would have put an animal down with the same deterioration. The bad part is your mental faculties remain intact at the same time. Heart-breaking for all concerned.

[Peter B - CV8]

I agree that it should be available. In fact, I reckon you should be able to buy gift vouchers for the procedure (for those special relatives)..

[xtremerus]

No option of "undecided" in the Poll.

Nearly 30 years ago, my first wife died of cancer, aged 34. I did not want to put her into Hospital for that last month of life [undetermined at the time] and rather her die at home with me and the girls, 7 and 9 yrs. and friends visiting.

There was home nursing then and they were fantastic and came once a day.

She was just on morphine for pain management and it was adjusted according as she required it.
At no time did she say she was in pain. We had the morphine in the fridge and they said to use it in the required dose when she needed it.

She died peacefully at home.

That is why I am undecided on the issue.
So many people say their relatives or friends died in pain towards the end. But from my one experience with dealing with this, is that I ask ,why is this so?
Is it that in Hospital the patient does not get the required dosages that they need ??
I can understand that the Hospitals would have strict regulations in this regard, but I wonder if that maybe their regs need looking at .

Maybe at home they know there is one-on-one care all the time to monitor, and know their signs and communications ?
In saying that, I never went over the instructed dosages or timings.
In saying that, I am not saying I didn't think about it towards the end.

It was quite hard for me to write this and bring back old memories, but they were good.

Euthanasia will always be a decisive issue.
And I am still on the fence.

[supershifty]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

No option of "undecided" in the Poll.

Nearly 30 years ago, my first wife died of cancer, aged 34. I did not want to put her into Hospital for that last month of life [undetermined at the time] and rather her die at home with me and the girls, 7 and 9 yrs. and friends visiting.

There was home nursing then and they were fantastic and came once a day.

She was just on morphine for pain management and it was adjusted according as she required it.
At no time did she say she was in pain. We had the morphine in the fridge and they said to use it in the required dose when she needed it.

She died peacefully at home.

That is why I am undecided on the issue.
So many people say their relatives or friends died in pain towards the end. But from my one experience with dealing with this, is that I ask ,why is this so?
Is it that in Hospital the patient does not get the required dosages that they need ??
I can understand that the Hospitals would have strict regulations in this regard, but I wonder if that maybe their regs need looking at .

Maybe at home they know there is one-on-one care all the time to monitor, and know their signs and communications ?
In saying that, I never went over the instructed dosages or timings.
In saying that, I am not saying I didn't think about it towards the end.

It was quite hard for me to write this and bring back old memories, but they were good.

Euthanasia will always be a decisive issue.
And I am still on the fence.

I purposely left undecided out of the poll xtremerus, the last poll I did was on gay/lesbian marriage and I made it for/against/don't care as the options. A few mentioned that the "don't care" option made the poll somewhat invalid.

I respect what you have stated above, and agree with what you've said.

I didn't know how touchy this thread was going to be as it goes right to the emotion of love and caring for another person and their right or not to choose.

All opinions are welcome in this thread, just not the one's that criticise in the negative personally to another members choice/beliefs - that's not on!

Thanks to all for their contributions so far, you've done admirably.

Cheers!