700mill For AU falcons?

[AEF_Silver94]

hi all,just a question out of general interest,i read the BA falcons cost 500mill to develop,and the AU Falcons cost 700mill, now why is there a 200 mill gap, my theory is,becuase of the different front ends on the AUs compared to the similar looking BA falcons across the range,the XRs and all put the AUs development costs higher. Doesnt sound much,but could it be ?

[mcflux]

Either way, $0 went towards marketing.

[Mongoose]

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

Either way, $0 went towards marketing.

and $0 spending a proper desiger on it. They need the dude who designed the XB falcon to do another one

[superroo]

Originally Posted by AU_Carlos88

hi all,just a question out of general interest,i read the BA falcons cost 500mill to develop,and the AU Falcons cost 700mill, now why is there a 200 mill gap, my theory is,becuase of the different front ends on the AUs compared to the similar looking BA falcons across the range,the XRs and all put the AUs development costs higher. Doesnt sound much,but could it be ?

remember that the au was an all new design, where as the ba shares some panels with the au. It kept the au's 4 doors (which i think are about 50mil each to re design and re tool) and some other things?

[needaXYGT]

yes, as mentioned above, the AU was a complete new design.

[Casper]

Just think of the BA as the AV Falcon. Thats what it was originally going to be called.

[Sapper]

Originally Posted by Casper

Just think of the BA as the AV Falcon. Thats what it was originally going to be called.

I think this gives a hint to what the nature of the upgrade from the AU to BA actually involved. My understanding is that a large amount of the $700mil that went into the AU would have gone into developing a new chassis/shell. Considering that the BA chassis/shell is based on the AU shell (they're very close), the $500mil for the BA could go into things like the interior, engine, control blade irs etc.

[Walkinshaw]

$700m to engineer a solid car
$500m to buy drugs for Australia to forget the AU.

[Fairlane]

AU Stuff was pretty outragous for the time, they didnt engineer one model they engineered like 5 models and like 6 engines.

New shell and front suspension for starters- stiffer with fandangled BHP steel
Fandangled Computer and Aerodynamic testing
Money spent on trying to differentiate models- think bonnets, like 12 different grills not to mention small pointless, annoy but expensive (in regards to tolling) things like orange indicator lenses in rear tailights.
Totally new interior- With 2 different dashes- 3 sort of if you count series upgrade
Smartguard in the Series 2 upgrade and the uprated brakes and E-gas
Differeent XR Front, not just headlights
Upgraded I6, not to mention the HP and VCT models- Plus the end of Headgasket problems
V8 Upgrades
Stuff like GPS integration for LTD's

New Ute
New Wagon
New Fairlane

BA is simpler because well they all use the same panelwork and similiar grilles. Dashes and the like are virtually identical. Engines are more simplified; only 1 not 4 versions on the N/A I6. Only one type of suspension architecture. Body shell already tested for rigidity and crash worthiness. But mainly i think similarities across the models in BA plus the fact its AU floorplan underneath saved the cash. Plus extra cash was due BA ute and Wagon development was not needed and Fairlane was just a Fairmont Ghia with the old AU LWB floorplan and roof.

[AWD Chaser]

BA/BF models are all very similar to each other, the AU on the other hand

Dash - Standard Series 1, Standard Series2/3, Fairmont, LTD
Instrument Cluster - Series 1, Series 2/3, Police Speedo, XR, Fairmont upwards
Front Grills - Who Knows
Different front end for XR
Live Axel options
Engines - More then a few
Series upgrade costs - dashes, Immobilisers, Rims, Grills, Spoliers, ECU Tweaks, Radios/CD Player, Tail Lights, Side Indicators.
All the little extra things - like how the fairmont ghia arm rests have a pocket in them, or the Series 3 use a slightly smaller curtosy light then the Series 1/2...
+ All the factory R&D testing...

[fou_bleu]

Would be interesting to see how much Ford spends on the Orion!

[Fordman1]

AU = all new sheetmetal & Interior.

BA = AU Doors, and engine box, all new rear end on sedan ,(inc suspension), interior, front end sheetmetal, and 85% of engine.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by fordman6

Would be interesting to see how much Ford spends on the Orion!

GoAuto asked Tom Gorman that question and he said it wouldn't be as much as the VE, more towards 800 million rather than a billion, but then again Ford have less to do than Holden, no LWB for example so it proably balances out considering Holden spent 200 million on their LWB's.

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

GoAuto asked Tom Gorman that question and he said it wouldn't be as much as the VE, more towards 800 million rather than a billion, but then again Ford have less to do than Holden, no LWB for example so it proably balances out considering Holden spent 200 million on their LWB's.

IMHO I reckon Ford Make their dollar go Further than Holden...more innovation ;)

[LeadFoot81]

Does the VE 1 billion figure and the AU 700 million figure include LWB's/Utes/Wagons?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Inline6

Does the VE 1 billion figure and the AU 700 million figure include LWB's/Utes/Wagons?

I believe they do.

[AEF_Silver94]

ah thanks everyone,i understand now , but still, i see some AUII and AUIII's around,they look so new still,i actually like the AUIII forte looks over the Base model XT,shame the AUI forte was so ugly..to the general public ( even though i dont really mind it )

Money spent on trying to differentiate models- think bonnets, like 12 different grills not to mention small pointless, annoy but expensive (in regards to tolling) things like orange indicator lenses in rear tailights.

this was my original theory. I actually liked all the different grills,gave something new to choose from compared to the BAs looking all the time ( not identical,but no BIG changes like in AU )

[AussieJason]

The AU was a massive project by Ford, and the $700 million spend in the late 90's would probably be well over the billion mark by today's standards.

Unfortunately for Ford the AU failed (despite what may diehard AU fans may say) as the stying was waaaay too ahead of its time.

The AUII and III were desperate rescue attempts to recoup some of the losses, and the AV Falcon project was rushed forward and became a radical facelift to save Ford Australia. This became the BA Falcon.

The reason the BA's had problems (especially the early ones) is that Ford had to develop the BA on a shoestring budget, despite the $500 million tag. Most of that went into redesigning the BA to be as different to the AU as possible for as little cost as possible, plus the new engines.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Inline6

Does the VE 1 billion figure and the AU 700 million figure include LWB's/Utes/Wagons?

And remember that the development dollars also includes money spent on assembly and production plant upgrades to new machinery and equipment. Eg, Holden bought a new press for complete single side pressing (which Ford has for Orion I think) so the actual VE car-only R&D wasn't $1Billion but rather part of the total budget.

[GXL078]

The BA was jut a facelift, and they finally fitted the twin cam head that was developed at the time of the EA, that's my theory.

[Steffo]

BA is the same generation of Falcon as AU.

AU, AUII, AUIII, BA, BAII, BF, BFII = All part of the current Falcon generation. Previous was EA-EL. XD-XF before that. XA-XC. XR-XY.

BA was a mid-life facelift, same deal as ED to EF transition, not an all-new car.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Steffo

BA is the same generation of Falcon as AU.

AU, AUII, AUIII, BA, BAII, BF, BFII = All part of the current Falcon generation. Previous was EA-EL. XD-XF before that. XA-XC. XR-XY.

BA was a mid-life facelift, same deal as ED to EF transition, not an all-new car.

BA is MORE than a facelift.

All new rear end & 80% of stampings including Front Floor pan, front cross upper & lower, members, roof pressing, cowl assy, and external sheetmetal except for side door opening stampings and door assemblies. Also powertrain is 85% new (apart from block casting), and suspension systems & interior are all new.

It's started out as a facelift but ended up being almost all new.

[Road_Warrior]

I think the term 'major revision' is more appropriate, but at the end of the day the BA still shared the fundamental structure of the AU - that is, the passenger cell and doors.

If I recall correctly, certain elements of the Orion programme, namely the DOHC I6 and the Control Blade were brought forward to BA, hence the $500 mill development cost to get all of that gear ready for the market. Which is the reason why Orion isnt going to be getting any fancy new engines or suspensions, because it is already there. Naturally because the new car won't be using the AU/BA/BF passenger cell and doors, they wont be constrained by that "old" vehicle's architecture like they were in the AU-BA jump, so there might be some refinements and improvements but essentially the same (or similar) stuff that is there now will be carried on.

ED to EF was a major revision too, however not as much as AU-BA because a lot of the fundamentals of the EF were unchanged (like the suspension, brakes, rear axle) and although the EF's interior was different, there were a lot of common parts. All of that stuff was completely changed for BA, and the dimensions of the car changed slightly as well.

[Fairlane]

I still argue the BA was a biggest facelift, the BA is no more removed from the AU3 than the EF was from the ED. EF was a big thing for ford and brought in new technologies like airbags.

Back in 1995, the EF was a huge change, the only difference was it was planned, AV the planned Falcon upgrade was only meant to be monor

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Fairlane

I still argue the BA was a biggest facelift, the BA is no more removed from the AU3 than the EF was from the ED.

I disagree. It was MUCH more significant than ED to EF.

New Motor's in BA, ALL NEW Suspension systems and fix points, rear end structure, different wheelbase on Sedan, and big changes to structural rigidity (the chassis is basically ALL NEW - hence the weight increase !!).

Ute and Wagon are less significant so if you consider $500 mil were spent on BA, you can see how fundamentally the sedan changed from AU to BA.

The suspension / powertrain technological and design changes are HUGE.

ED to EF was a reskin & new interior. There were no fundamental structural changes as in AU to BA (airbags ? Yeah significant, but not as significant as the changes above).

Yes in the end there are some carryover parts, but the changes are really more substantial than is commonly thought - those carry over doors have fooled a lot of us !

[sleekism]

I think the BA was a major step forward in terms of some areas (IRS, Turbo, Modular v8, exterior styling) but a major step backwards in others (little product differentiation).

The AU was great because there was a bigger diffeerence between the models.

There were 4 N/A six cylinder engines and 5 V8's during the life of the AU Falcons and the XR's looked different to the Fairmonts which looked different to the Forte which looked different to the S which looked different to the T series.

It makes me sick that a XR6 Turbo looks so similar to a base model Falcon.

Even FPV have the same problem that they're cars look so similar to base Falcons and XR's.

The XR6 used to be different too: you got a hot six with red powdercoated head more power and torque and other little touches that make it special like a unique front head.

From a distance you can tell every AU model apart you can even tell the difference between HP and VCT XR6's due to their slightly different front.

I've often mistaken BA SR's for XR6's and Fairmont Ghia's for base model XT's.

Its unbelievable how they have shat all over the Fairmont Ghia giving it a reguar six the budget V8 no exterior styling and a half *** attempt at interior styling.

Bring back the options and all the specials like the TS50 you buy a Mustang and theirs limitless amounts of options and special editions do the same to the Falcon and give the Fairmont Ghia some dignity and make FPV a car worth paying extra for.

Im hoping with the Orion they are going to make the mode